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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 63 post(s)
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 166	Posted - 2011.10.18 17:10:00 - [1] - Quote You know... this is actually a pretty worthless change when it comes to wormholes. It makes no sense at all. Usually a single corp / alliance lives in a hole, and no one comes in from other systems to do PI. It's completely not feasible. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to change the way things work right now in wormholes. It really should be left as is in there. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 168	Posted - 2011.10.18 17:21:00 - [2] - Quote Again... THIS IS A COMPLETELY WORTHLESS CHANGE IN WORMHOLES! 1. Only the people that live there do the PI there. We won't be charging our own corp/alliance taxes for the fuel they're making to help keep the pos running. 2. Holes last a maximum of 24 hrs. If someone comes in and puts one reinforced, the hole will close before they can pop it. Even if they pop it, they gain nothing. So, it's either wasted time and aggravation to put one reinforced and never get to finish the job, or it's an added pain in the ass for someone moving into a new hole to have to clean these pieces of crap out in order to set up their own. The whole concept completely fails in wormholes. Please consider leaving wormhole space out of this. It only works in areas of high traffic where you can have people that are in direct competition with each other trying to do PI on a particular planet. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN in wormholes! C'mon CCP... THINK on this! Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 169	Posted - 2011.10.18 18:02:00 - [3] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: Again... THIS IS A COMPLETELY WORTHLESS CHANGE IN WORMHOLES! 1. Only the people that live there do the PI there. We won't be charging our own corp/alliance taxes for the fuel they're making to help keep the pos running. 2. Holes last a maximum of 24 hrs. If someone comes in and puts one reinforced, the hole will close before they can pop it. Even if they pop it, they gain nothing. So, it's either wasted time and aggravation to put one reinforced and never get to finish the job, or it's an added pain in the ass for someone moving into a new hole to have to clean these pieces of crap out in order to set up their own. The whole concept completely fails in wormholes. Please consider leaving wormhole space out of this. It only works in areas of high traffic where you can have people that are in direct competition with each other trying to do PI on a particular planet. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN in wormholes! C'mon CCP... THINK on this! CCP Omen - I may not be on the CSM, but could you take a moment to consider this? It really makes no sense to include wormholes in this change at all. I'm not going to tax myself or my corp, so there's no one to tax there. I have up to ten planets being worked, so I need to halt fuel production and come up with ten of these things that we won't use anyhow? This is a really really bad change with regards to J-space. Please take a moment to consider that. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 169	Posted - 2011.10.18 18:30:00 - [4] - Quote Ranger 1 wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Again... THIS IS A COMPLETELY WORTHLESS CHANGE IN WORMHOLES! 1. Only the people that live there do the PI there. We won't be charging our own corp/alliance taxes for the fuel they're making to help keep the pos running. 2. Holes last a maximum of 24 hrs. If someone comes in and puts one reinforced, the hole will close before they can pop it. Even if they pop it, they gain nothing. So, it's either wasted time and aggravation to put one reinforced and never get to finish the job, or it's an added pain in the ass for someone moving into a new hole to have to clean these pieces of crap out in order to set up their own. The whole concept completely fails in wormholes. Please consider leaving wormhole space out of this. It only works in areas of high traffic where you can have people that are in direct competition with each other trying to do PI on a particular planet. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN in wormholes! C'mon CCP... THINK on this! CCP Omen - I may not be on the CSM, but could you take a moment to consider this? It really makes no sense to include wormholes in this change at all. I'm not going to tax myself or my corp, so there's no one to tax there. I have up to ten planets being worked, so I need to halt fuel production and come up with ten of these things that we won't use anyhow? This is a really really bad change with regards to J-space. Please take a moment to consider that. Valid point, but there is more to it than that. The new CO system can and will have an impact of corps that wish to take your wormhole, not to mention static wormholes that have fairly regular visitors. If someone wishes to take over your WH, they have to consider that if they wish to fully utilize it they will need to spend the time to remove your infrastructure. I f they wish to harass you, they now have another way to do so. If you wish to move to another WH, you too will have these same advantages and disadvantages to weigh. Also, of course you can place a zero % tax on your CO... but most corps would consider at least a 5% tax on import/export. Especially when you consider that if your corp members were doing PI on an already less lucurative high sec planet they would be paying 10% now. In fact, under the current system they are already paying 5% with none of that going to benefit the corp. Tying the BPs to Concord LP... also stupid. Dude... we're in wormholes. Concord doesn't give us LP. No incursions into wormholes. Can they be built at a pos? Can they be done so cheaply? Or will we be stuck spending billions for enough of these to cover our planets just so we can make enough fuel to keep going? Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 169	Posted - 2011.10.18 19:18:00 - [5] - Quote They certainly need to be a lot more accessible to people that don't farm Concord or FW LP. They also need to be able to be built at a pos. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 172	Posted - 2011.10.19 02:06:00 - [6] - Quote Ah crap, I didn't even think about that issue, and I'm sure CCP didn't either. NONE of my command centers connect to my PI setups anymore. They've moved across the planet many times. Basically, if the customs offices go poof, that's it. No way to launch PI. Is it even possible to send materials TO the planets without a customs office? I gather P2 mats and take them to a sinle planet for P3 and P4 production. Sounds like we're getting additionally screwed there as well. Damn, I wish CCP would actually slow down and think things through, think about all the ripples they cause when they rush game-changing decisions like this. When they promised more communications, I didn't think they meant yelling "Surprise *********!" before bending us over. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 173	Posted - 2011.10.19 02:45:00 - [7] - Quote Narkel Netto wrote: Great concept, but it will be a non starter unless: * They come in different sizes and allow you to anchor hardeners / defenses (think "miniature POS"). This will let people decide on how much they want to spend on fuel / defenses. * The smallest version should have a 21 day fuel bay and cost about 100k/day. Maybe give it about 1/2 of the PG/CPU of a small POS tower and call it a mini-POCO. Larger versions should scale up and a large-POCO should cost about 800k/day in fuel. * Fuel costs are needed, and if its not fueled it should go offline and anyone can simply unanchor the POCO and anchor a new one under new ownership. Without ongoing fuel or maintenance costs, there's going to be POCO spam everywhere. What the hell are you thinking? You're going to have them burn more fuel than the planets can generate? We'll need ten of these damnable things in our hole. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 178	Posted - 2011.10.19 12:37:00 - [8] - Quote Cailais wrote: Kim Lesley Hartman wrote: What gives the little guy the right? His/her ability outsmart and dodge a much larger hostile force out to get him/her that gives them the right. This change means however I will now simply be denied access to the planets and no amount of cleverness will save me. That seems wrong to me. You make some good points, but I think we have to keep in mind where CCP are going with PI and its inevitable interaction with DUST 514. To illustrate: Dustbunny "Hi my teams here to defend this world from your aggressors!" Dave "Er..hi." Dustbunny "So what support can your corp mates give? Orbital bombardment? How big's your fleet?!" Dave "Er...well its just me tbh" Dustbunny "..." Having said all that CCP could include some interesting smuggling mechanics in here > avoiding custom office tariffs for example. Personally I don't fear to much for the smart little guy; they typically outwit the larger entities as is and I don't think POCO will be much different. C. Hey Cail, you know we'll need ten of these damnable structures in our hole and we won't benefit in any way, shape or form from having them? The only thing that will happen is our PI will be screwed while we try and get these over priced pieces of crap in there. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 178	Posted - 2011.10.19 12:53:00 - [9] - Quote Tres Farmer wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: snip Hey Cail, you know we'll need ten of these damnable structures in our hole and we won't benefit in any way, shape or form from having them? The only thing that will happen is our PI will be screwed while we try and get these over priced pieces of crap in there. Uhm? Pro: 0% tax from there on increased revenue from PI products Con: upfront install cost of COs Again, milking the CO by a small gang must be more attractive, than the reinforcement/destruction by the big blob. The other side is, that the milking must be a big enough nuisance for the CO owners/users to 'feel the urge' to do something about it. A big blob, putting the thing into reinforce is not it. Unfurtunately the "CON" of the price for these abominations will eat any profit to be gleamed from PI, including the lower tax rate, for a considerable time, especially when you consider needing ten of these things. So, while trying to get ten, PI will be broken. Generic lauches won't work, unless someone can tell me how to do launches when your command center is no longer connected to the rest of the network because you moved the network following resources, or how to get those P1 materials being made on the gathering planets down to the industrial planet that converts them to P2 on up. They're really screwing things up, and the fact that CCP won't even address the concerns the players have now indicates that the whole Hilmar apology and promise for better communication was just a lie to coddle the community. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 178	Posted - 2011.10.19 13:08:00 - [10] - Quote What's sad is that in this time of supposed "better communications with the players" CCP Omen and the rest won't address the concerns people are bringing up at all. This does not bode well. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 178	Posted - 2011.10.19 13:40:00 - [11] - Quote Cailais wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Cailais wrote: Kim Lesley Hartman wrote: What gives the little guy the right? His/her ability outsmart and dodge a much larger hostile force out to get him/her that gives them the right. This change means however I will now simply be denied access to the planets and no amount of cleverness will save me. That seems wrong to me. You make some good points, but I think we have to keep in mind where CCP are going with PI and its inevitable interaction with DUST 514. To illustrate: Dustbunny "Hi my teams here to defend this world from your aggressors!" Dave "Er..hi." Dustbunny "So what support can your corp mates give? Orbital bombardment? How big's your fleet?!" Dave "Er...well its just me tbh" Dustbunny "..." Having said all that CCP could include some interesting smuggling mechanics in here > avoiding custom office tariffs for example. Personally I don't fear to much for the smart little guy; they typically outwit the larger entities as is and I don't think POCO will be much different. C. Hey Cail, you know we'll need ten of these damnable structures in our hole and we won't benefit in any way, shape or form from having them? The only thing that will happen is our PI will be screwed while we try and get these over priced pieces of crap in there. You have to consider the bigger picture: WH PI will be more cost effective than High Sec PI, that's pretty much a given. It will also be significantly less vulnerable to 'outside influence' than say a low sec / null PI set up. Less vulnerable also equals less expensive in the long term. Accepting that PI materials increase in price (or at least are considerably more unstable) WH PI could prove to be quite lucrative. C. I need a hug. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 179	Posted - 2011.10.19 14:15:00 - [12] - Quote Mikron Alexarr wrote: GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote: i also dont understand the massive amount of emo-rage on here... u can still launch stuff into space without going through the PCO, and it wont be taxed. plus if you're in someone elses space as a neut or worse... thats how u should be doing it anyway! This demonstrates a lack of knowledge. Read previous threadnaught before posting. Launches are not a viable option. There are already pages of discussion on that alone. Try again. There's also the unaddressed problem of launching things TO the planet for further refinement. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United 184	Posted - 2011.10.19 18:31:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: Daedalus II wrote: It's also extremely hard to find a good deal; maybe the system next door has much better taxes, but you have to manually fly there and check out every damn office to know that. What if you have hundreds of potential systems? it will take forever to check them all out. Tax rate is available to you while you are in system but you can see them all on the overview so you don't need to actually fly up to each one. I will cite technical complexity as the reason it isn't initially available to everyone / everywhere but I can also see an argument for exploration as being part of the PI gameplay anyway. Re comments about not responding, give us some time, today has been a particularly rough day at CCP. We did have a meeting this morning to discuss the many ideas and comments in this thread and some points are being acting on already so hang tight. I'm guilty of that, fair enough, please accept the apologies of the anxiously impatient. Request for consideration - accessibility to our PI in wormholes should the customs offices go "poof" and we don't have these players owned things yet... the launching mechanic won't work because our PI isn't attached anymore to the command center... it's moved around following the resources. The likely prohibitive cost of these facilities (at least initially) will make it take forever, if at all, to recoup the cost... especially in wormholes where we're not taxing our own people for the fuel they're putting in the pos. Also the need to import materials to planets without these things. It really feels like wormhole considerations were overlooked. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.20 12:09:00 - [14] - Quote The deafening silence we're getting with regards to addressing concerns and issues is speaking volumes. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.20 15:16:00 - [15] - Quote @CCP Nullabor: Any thoughts as to the concerns players are having with regards to, for example, our PI being completely broken if the current customs offices are destroyed? We can't laumch goods... our command centers aren't connected to the PI chain which has migrated around the planet with the resources. Those of us in wormholes... we're not running incursions or in FW, so we're completely cut off from the BPCs, fully dependent on entirely different groups of people. We also have a boatload of planets that would all need these things... ten in my hole alone... in order to function properly. Having to come up with either ten BPCs at non-insane prices (or worse, ten of these structures off the market) and build and/or move to position then upgrade... this is going to cause some quite significant hardships. They definitely need to be much more accessible, especially for folks that simply aren't in a position in any way, shape or form to farm the LP needed for them. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.20 17:17:00 - [16] - Quote rootimus maximus wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Any thoughts as to the concerns players are having with regards to, for example, our PI being completely broken if the current customs offices are destroyed? We can't laumch goods... our command centers aren't connected to the PI chain which has migrated around the planet with the resources. Is it no longer fashionable to have your extractors and factories send stuff direct to a launchpad (instead of a storage thingy)? That would solve your command center problem. The launchpad connects to the Customs office. The customs office is going away. The command center is on the other side of the planet. It's neither feasible nor realistic to expect the PI network to migrate back to the command center where resources were depleted (hence the migration in the first place). There's also the need to import materials to the planet. So, combined with the already complicated logistics of wormholes and the fact that, in my hole at least, I need ten of these bad boys... yeah, there are issues. PI will be broken for a considerable amount of time, with no real gain. It'll take forever to recoup the cost of these abominations through a zero tax rate, especially when you consider only the residents of the hole will be doing PI regardless. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.20 17:28:00 - [17] - Quote rootimus maximus wrote: But you can launch stuff from the launchpads, is my point, so it doesn't matter that you're not connected to the command center. What am I missing? As far as importing goes, I can see the issue there. You need to be able to fire supply rockets down to the planet. Or, given the billions of isk you can make living in wormhole space, you could just buy / make the materials and drop your towers. You lose some profit for a few days and then carry on as normal. Even make the cusoms office open to all for a reasonable tax rate and recoup some of the costs. Hmm... I could be worried over a lot less than necessary... I thought you could only rocket things into space from the command centers and launchpads were for connecting to the customs offices... if that's incorrect that's a degree less painful, but it still results with an immediate need for three or four of these things initially with the remainder of the planets being covered shortly after. Ah, nm... Kassasis cleared it up. Although I disagree with is assessment... it's not that the command center was poorly placed, it was optimal at the time. The resources, however, moved requiring the set up to move while the command center remained in place. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.20 17:32:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: Hundo Kay wrote: I have scanned the topics, and I still have not seen any response to the question of what happens to the PI goodies stored inside when the POCO goes Boom. Do we get a drop like everything else at 50/50 for each item batch, or nothing? This single question will determine the long term survivability of the POCO. If the drop rate is 0% then when the newness of ganking these things wears off, they should become more stable. If on the otherhand, there is a drop potential, I can see a lot more people having an incentive to not only knock these things around like Loot Pinatas, but also to maintain a small PvP force around them for the 24+ hours of reinforcement. We already know people can still get their stuff out before it pops, but will there be an incentive to maintain a force at the POCO while popping it? So please CCP, fill us in on the details of what happens when these things go "POP". No drop, the items are just destroyed. For some reason you seem to be very selective with what you're choosing to answer, adeptly avoiding concerns. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.20 17:38:00 - [19] - Quote Here's another potential problem... why are these now tied to corporations and not invididuals? The problem is, you get kicked from a corp for whatever reason and now you're cut off from your PI. No one should be able to flip a switch and cut you off from the PI you set up yourself with your own isk. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.20 17:45:00 - [20] - Quote Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Although I disagree with is assessment... it's not that the command center was poorly placed, it was optimal at the time. The resources, however, moved requiring the set up to move while the command center remained in place. Granted some may deploy their colonies with the original intention of the Command Center also being connected. But let's be honest, most do not. So my point remains. As to the others that did deploy the Colony as intended, with the Command Center linked (even CCP's official PI youtube guide shows it being connected), I would say they have been over extracting. Which again is a consequential choice. I take only what I need to produce my commodities as I reprocess them toward Tier 4 Advanced Commodities, and I never have had a extractor location run dry yet that caused me to have to move in such a way that I was forced to disconnect from the Command Center. So again... consequential choices should not be a design consideration. Hmm... you need to step up the PI then. It's hard to imagine it being done so poorly that you can remain on a single place for any great period of time. Max the skills, crank up the output. I do admit... even with initial deployment I'm not connecting the command center even though everything is right there with it. There's no need to... it's storage is inferior to a launchpad. Hmm... you know... command centers could use an overhaul. They're just not very... commanding. More of an annoyance. Buff the storage on them and make them mobile and it's win all round. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.20 18:01:00 - [21] - Quote Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Although I disagree with is assessment... it's not that the command center was poorly placed, it was optimal at the time. The resources, however, moved requiring the set up to move while the command center remained in place. Granted some may deploy their colonies with the original intention of the Command Center also being connected. But let's be honest, most do not. So my point remains. As to the others that did deploy the Colony as intended, with the Command Center linked (even CCP's official PI youtube guide shows it being connected), I would say they have been over extracting. Which again is a consequential choice. I take only what I need to produce my commodities as I reprocess them toward Tier 4 Advanced Commodities, and I never have had a extractor location run dry yet that caused me to have to move in such a way that I was forced to disconnect from the Command Center. So again... consequential choices should not be a design consideration. Hmm... you need to step up the PI then. It's hard to imagine it being done so poorly that you can remain on a single place for any great period of time. Max the skills, crank up the output. I do admit... even with initial deployment I'm not connecting the command center even though everything is right there with it. There's no need to... it's storage is inferior to a launchpad. Hmm... you know... command centers could use an overhaul. They're just not very... commanding. More of an annoyance. Buff the storage on them and make them mobile and it's win all round. Having maxed skills, I still am able to retain an equilibrium in extraction vs. production.... I have consistent Tier 4 Advanced Commodities production, so I know I'm not doing it wrong. Just vying for sustainable production is all. Yes there could be some improvements for annoying PG issues, etc. But again it doesn't change the fact that CCP should not be asked to develop based on consequential choice considerations. That's all I'm saying. I wonder then if it's because I use most planets for extraction of P0, export P1 and one planet that converts P1 on up... maybe that explains the greater drainage... Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.20 18:13:00 - [22] - Quote Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: I do P0 > P2 all on the same planet - I then export and ship all P2 to the Tier 4 production planet for processing into P3 > P4... Sounds like your loading up you supply chain on the front end rather than gradual stair stepped production? But it is doable if you are in a 0.3 system or under -- very spotty to sustain on planets in 0.4 in my experience. Yep, wormhole... the P1s all go to an industrial planet with some 27 or so processors on it crunching things up the food chain. Works well, full pos fuel production, approx 140 robotics per day and a small recent shift to some of the materials we'll need for the new things. But yeah, the extraction planets only have the basic processing on them, no second tier. Allows greater suckage of the resources. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.20 19:43:00 - [23] - Quote Sucks that you could have someone in a corporation go rogue and cut off PI to any people using these structures. PI is something that has always been something you do on your own time and of your own will. It seems really wrong that someone else is being given control over your efficient use of PI with these things. Could also be a problem if the controlling corp goes belly up and dies. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.20 23:12:00 - [24] - Quote Well, CCP Phantom, if you're still seeing this, please have them keep in mind initial accessibility of these things, especially in systems where access will be quite difficult, such as wormholes. We'll need ten in our hole, the initial costs will be prohibitive (admit it... the first ones out there will cost a small fortune and be hard to come by) and getting them to the holes will be a massive PITA. We don't have access to Concord or FW LP in here so we're dependent on the "kindness" of others putting the BPCs on the market. Plus, with tens of thousands of customs offices slated to go poof... well, supply will lag significantly behind demand. Unless, of course, prior to production the Eve universe is initally seeded with these at a decent price... enough to get them out there quickly. As they become established, you can reduce NPC supply and shift over to construction as the means to replenish them. But the whole 'cold turkey' idea... man, that's brutal and punishing. NOT feeling any love there. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.21 10:24:00 - [25] - Quote Jack Dant wrote: Scrapyard Bob wrote: Which is something that I think CCP needs to address - currently, to run lab / manuf slots on a POS tower with prices in the 350M/mo range for a large tower, you're looking at a cost of 8000-9500 ISK/hr. Right now, if you have a 60-slot POS tower and are paying 500M ISK/mo, then you have to plan on spending 11,300 per hour on fuel per slot. Anything that makes over 1 mil/slot/day in profit will easily pay that back and then some, if you consider the 33% increase in production from the build time bonus. My PI networks were unnoticeably uneffected by the increase in pipe flow. They were already efficiently set up. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.21 12:52:00 - [26] - Quote There should never be a system in place that prevents someone from being able to do their PI. If these go in as advertised, it's far too easy for a corporation to cut off it's own members, or members that leave, etc. from being able to do their PI. Even simply removing the customs offices dramatically damages someone's ability to perform PI... you can't import goods anymore to the planet, and odds are your network is no longer connected to the command center for those puny export launches anyhow. PI is one thing that has truly remained in the control and grasp of the individual. It's a person's "me time" in an MMO that encourages cooperative play. Even in an MMO, a little "me time" is a good thing. It's a mental reset, a moment to focus on the "you". If this is lost then something immeasurable is lost. A little bit of the spirit of the self gets lost. Yes, we're meant to be parts of a greater whole, but that's not all we're meant to be. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.21 13:13:00 - [27] - Quote Dominus Alterai wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: There should never be a system in place that prevents someone from being able to do their PI. If these go in as advertised, it's far too easy for a corporation to cut off it's own members, or members that leave, etc. from being able to do their PI. Even simply removing the customs offices dramatically damages someone's ability to perform PI... you can't import goods anymore to the planet, and odds are your network is no longer connected to the command center for those puny export launches anyhow. PI is one thing that has truly remained in the control and grasp of the individual. It's a person's "me time" in an MMO that encourages cooperative play. Even in an MMO, a little "me time" is a good thing. It's a mental reset, a moment to focus on the "you". If this is lost then something immeasurable is lost. A little bit of the spirit of the self gets lost. Yes, we're meant to be parts of a greater whole, but that's not all we're meant to be. Command center launches will still be available. If CCP made the launch capacity larger or able to launch more often, not many people would complain and this specific complaint would be null and void. If you launch the P1 products produced on a planet into orbit, you can then transfer the resources to your high-sec factory planet. This is the way most serious PI people do their production, especially if they get their P1 products from low-sec. Of course, the only difference is that they use the MUCH more convenient customs offices already in place. Again, if CCP made the launch capacity of command centers larger (not rivaling that of launch pads obviously), not many people would have reason to complain. Of course, there's always the issue of the far away comm center... Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.21 14:17:00 - [28] - Quote War Kitten wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level. Yes, we understand you refuse to see past the other options available to you: 1) Use a high-sec factory for your imports. 2) Find a less populous lowsec area to do your imports. (Lowsec is pretty empty if you get past the first 5 systems in) 3) Negotiate with the residents to use thier CO and planet for imports. 4) Join a larger corporation with similar interests. Just because you want to play solo does not mean every single aspect of every single feature should cater to your play style. 1. You know... that sounded like a good idea so I spent the last couple hours searching my wormhole... I couldn't find any in here. 2. Couldn't find any low sec ones either. Damn the bad luck. 3. I am the residents. Between the down time from the command centers going poof to the logistical nightmare getting up to ten of these POCOs up and running, we're screwed. 4. See 1 & 2. But... these are actually separate issues from empire, so I shouldn't let myself get too distracted... the issues there still remain in spite of your dismissals of them. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.21 14:19:00 - [29] - Quote Dominus Alterai wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Dominus Alterai wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: There should never be a system in place that prevents someone from being able to do their PI. If these go in as advertised, it's far too easy for a corporation to cut off it's own members, or members that leave, etc. from being able to do their PI. Even simply removing the customs offices dramatically damages someone's ability to perform PI... you can't import goods anymore to the planet, and odds are your network is no longer connected to the command center for those puny export launches anyhow. PI is one thing that has truly remained in the control and grasp of the individual. It's a person's "me time" in an MMO that encourages cooperative play. Even in an MMO, a little "me time" is a good thing. It's a mental reset, a moment to focus on the "you". If this is lost then something immeasurable is lost. A little bit of the spirit of the self gets lost. Yes, we're meant to be parts of a greater whole, but that's not all we're meant to be. Command center launches will still be available. If CCP made the launch capacity larger or able to launch more often, not many people would complain and this specific complaint would be null and void. If you launch the P1 products produced on a planet into orbit, you can then transfer the resources to your high-sec factory planet. This is the way most serious PI people do their production, especially if they get their P1 products from low-sec. Of course, the only difference is that they use the MUCH more convenient customs offices already in place. Again, if CCP made the launch capacity of command centers larger (not rivaling that of launch pads obviously), not many people would have reason to complain. Of course, there's always the issue of the far away comm center... Yes, launches from the planet will be available. How about getting things to the planet? If customs offices go >poof<, this whole aspect of PI is shut down. If someone else puts a POCO on your production planet, you're entire operation is screwed if they decide to be dicks about it. Taking the full personal control of one's own PI and allowing others to stop it with a click of a button... it's breaking something that's (imo) needed on an individual level. I don't think you read my entire post. Most people have High-sec factory planets where P2 products and up are made. This will still be available, as the customs offices in high sec will remain, ie you can still import/export in high-sec. Also, I don't think there was ever a plan to be able to deny access to a functioning POCO depending on standing. I beleive the only way to do that would be to reinforce it constantly, which is tiresome and a logistical nightmare. My apologies, I got my wires crossed... my response with the issues of launching drifted back to the logistics we'll have in wormholes. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.21 14:52:00 - [30] - Quote This may be too radical of a suggestion for most people to handle, but how about this for an idea... (ideally would be not introducing them at all, but...) Customs offices remain where they are until someone puts up a POCO. This allows people to transition in at a pace the game can keep up with. Possibly as an "incentive" to switch them over tax rates could slowly increase over time. This still doesn't alleviate the issue of allowing other people control of our PI, which is a horrible idea, but it may help reduce the sting that something as short-sighted as instantly removing all customs offices at once would have. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.21 15:53:00 - [31] - Quote Dominus Alterai wrote: Jack Dant wrote: Dominus Alterai wrote: The "protection" is that the fleet that lost it can come back an hour or two later and re-capture it if they truly want it. No pvp gang will wait around for hours for a SURE fight where a larger, better prepared fleet will arrive to wipe them out. Ah, so you would skip the reinforcement timer? POCO ping-pong? Why not? Either you REALLY want that one customs office in order to tax the living hell out of everyone, which is bad for everyone else, or you can just go capture another one on an identical planet in either the same system or in a near by system. I think this will mainly only happen on plasma, lava, or storm planets. Maybe ice planets too. It basically forces people that want to do PI to either move to other low-sec systems, further populating low-sec, or gives people some "on demand" small fleet engagements, or both. OR CCP could keep the reinforcement timer and the first person to shoot it after the reinforcement timer ends (when at 0 hp) takes the office, much like how outposts are captured. And lol. POCO Ping-Pong sounds like a new Eve meta game. This would be annoying as hell in wormholes and ultimately provide little to no benefit however. The only time I'd see this being useful is moving in to a new hole with some of these already up. That brings up a question... can we offline and scoop these up if we want to move them to a different planet/system? Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.21 17:10:00 - [32] - Quote It's cute when children on the internet pretend to be men. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.22 13:11:00 - [33] - Quote Zarazor Haargrim wrote: In a wormhole it would certainly make sense, in addition to being another focal point for invasion etc. P.S. that is the kind of negotiation that I suspect CCP is counting on, and makes a great deal of sense, unfortunately it won't happen (much) in lowsec! Also if a genuine offer I just might be interested Bah, these things are worthless in wormholes... they add nothing to the game. Any wormhole corp that taxes it's own members for the PI they do, which often is used to supply the corp with some pos fuel, isn't worth being in in the first place. All they'll be is something to rep up on occassion because some dillweed thought it would be funny to put one in reinforced while you were offline, or worse... a major pain in the ass to people moving into new holes that may have these things littering planets they want to use for PI. The time and effort you'd have to waste to clear them and plant your own... yeah, hooray CCP. We need more grind just to function. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.24 18:17:00 - [34] - Quote Still hating the idea of this taking someone's control of their own PI and putting it in the hands of the corporation. So much of the game requires cooperation to play well, if at all already. Leaving people that little bit of "me time" activity, when they want to break from doing this or that with these guys or those guys... this is important simply from the mental health standpoint of the game. If every part of the game turns into a "cooperation required" event it's going to eventually begin to burn people out. Sometimes it's just nice to log into the hole, kick back and mess with the PI a bit. There's already the risk that someone can come in and blast everything you have away... risk is inherent in the game after all. However this puts the PI in the hands of someone else who can screw with you even during relaxing times. Actually, this is likely a bigger problem in empire, where some bunghole can put one of these things up on the planets you've been working for months and now you're totally cut off from your own little bit of activities... for what? It's really not making sense to take personal control of PI out of the player's hands and giving the power to corporations. In the long run, it'll damage the game for many on a personal level well outside of the pew-pew risks, etc. I think it's important to preserve what little "me time" people do have in an MMO which already has a lot that requires co-op, as an MMO should. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.25 13:25:00 - [35] - Quote D'Kelle wrote: Dominus Alterai wrote: D'Kelle wrote: Sorry but err; I think you CCP guys are still a few cells short of a brain. When you have a Corp settled in a WH and they own the Customs offices who the heck do you think they are going to charge for their usage when the Corp members are making stuff for the Corp anyway. No self respecting WH invader is going to be interested in doing PI, he just wants to shoot ****.. and rightly so. donGÇÖt forget the Corp numbers in WH space and its hmmm, random accessibility, kind of makes defending them effectively very unlikely, not so in low or null sec where groups can be assembled and fly in on both sides to have some pew-pew fun. Setting up say a minimum of 6 Customs offices which bring in no revenue to their users, only added costs (Oh wait they might save a few measly K Isk on each transaction) to and from the planet for the outlay of close on 500 mil for the 6 gantries and the items to turn those six into customs offices. Interesting, do you run CCP's finances the same way, no? Thought so, like hell you would, you would be bankrupt in 6months or less. Typically you are applying low or null sec parameters to WH space which has its own rules, benefits, and risks, which means it should have slightly different parameters, as you have for the Empire ones. Not the same as Empire of course (that would be just as daft), but some which allow for the anomalies of WH life. I have tried to show what In my opinion is an error in your set up, by attempting to view it from both side, me I look forward to some pew- pew it may bring, but I donGÇÖt want to lose my fun by this method of seemingly downward logarithmic spiralling of WH targets which become too costly for corps to maintain. you can set tax rates to 0% if you own the customs office, so you don't need to pay anyone. You missed the point most WH's are occupied by one maybe two friendly corps well, friendly towards each other at least so as there are few if any prospect of passing trade telated to PI in a EB who the heck do you tax? Point no revenue.. Further more anyone who is into PI. Would know that the transaction fees are not crippling. Even a newbee can make fairly good ISK at it. Which means, basically, that these POCOs are a complete waste of isk for wormhole dwellers. We'll effectively get no benefits aside from being able to set the taxes to zero, and that won't be enough to recoup the cost of these things for months or longer. Hell, we'll need ten of these damned things in our hole. What a load of crap the current concept is... if they do go through with this I hope they consider seeding empire with tons of these things at cheap cost initially to replace the tens of thousands of customs offices they'll be needlessly destroying. Better yet... leave customs offices in place until someone plants a POCO. If they unanchor the POCO, the customs office reopens. That gives real incentive to destroy POCOs around planets you favor that an unfriendly corp set up on while reducing the number of people taking one up the rear with the initial implementation of these things. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.25 15:01:00 - [36] - Quote El 1974 wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Which means, basically, that these POCOs are a complete waste of isk for wormhole dwellers. We'll effectively get no benefits aside from being able to set the taxes to zero, and that won't be enough to recoup the cost of these things for months or longer. Hell, we'll need ten of these damned things in our hole. What a load of crap the current concept is... Just put up the COs, invite some highsec industrials to do all the PI stuff for you, sit back and receive a piece of the action, while doing nothing. Stop whining. In my wormhole? What the hell you babbling on about? Any industrialists from high sec trying to do PI in my hole will be taking the lonely pod express back to high sec. It's not like I'd get a cut of their goods anyhow, or even enough to matter. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.25 16:16:00 - [37] - Quote rootimus maximus wrote: So you're chosing to shut off a potential revenue stream, with the trade-off being greater security from killing all intruders. Where's the problem? Wormhole dwellers were (rightly) complaining when customs offices first magically appeared in these far-off systems, now they're complaining because the situation is being corrected and they have to spend around 100 mil per planet, when they live in a sea of isk. There's just no pleasing some people. No, seriously... You sound like you actually think it's possible for someone in high sec to run PI in wormholes. Here's a hint... it's not. 16 to 24 hrs and the door closes. As such, anyone in the hole from empire is there to steal something, be it Sleeper sites or anoms, and dealt with accordingly. So, I reiterate... Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.25 17:33:00 - [38] - Quote admiral root wrote: Max Devious wrote: You don't understand this. WH crews use the products produced in PI to run our POSs. Almost none of this stuff ever leaves the WH. For a WH crew, there's only 2 reasons we ever see an industrial vessel that is not ours; either they are using one of our exits to get to Kspace or they are bringing in a POS to set up and try to evict us. Both of these ships are in a very dangerous situation. Max. Diplomacy is in no way a violation of the EULA. If there are empire carebears willing to deal with the logistical headache of getting the stuff out, why not work with them? You could even get them to haul your fuel in, with you keeping the tax at a sensible rate in return. Because, qutie simply enough, deliberately opening holes into empire is nothing more an open invitation to having your hole invaded. Granted, it's probably possible someone actually does that... we tend to consider them future targets however and not someone we'd consider smart enough to occupy wormholes for any significant period of time. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.25 19:15:00 - [39] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: We put in a change today so that mails wont be generated unless you do at least some significant amount of damage. A lone rifter doing a drive by won't trigger it, because that would be annoying. Any changes as far as the initial supply? Simply removing the customs offices and waiting for the market to catch up in order to do effective PI again is crippling to say the least. I like the idea of leaving the customs offices in place and having these supercede them if someone plants one, and the customs office coming back online if one's destroyed. It adds the flavor of people deciding to remove the ones that a hostile corp put up, even if they can't manage to put one up themselves. This at least allows some safeguards, some means for people to be able to fight for the right to do their own PI without corporate interference. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.25 19:50:00 - [40] - Quote Meldan Anstian wrote: One thing that has not been suggested yet, is that we raise the tax rate in high sec to a very high rate. Bob's thoughts kinda gave me this idea. That would certainly help push people to low sec ... What? You actually believe you can force people into areas they don't want to be? Don't be ridiculous. People that don't want to go into low sec won't, regardless of the taxes. They'll simply either pay the taxes or drop PI instead. It's basic human nature... you're not going to force them. Instead you'll have a more disgruntled base that's even more likely to unsub. Push them to low sec. Push them to null. Sheesh, what the hell are people thinking? All pushing will do is push them away. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.26 13:24:00 - [41] - Quote CCP Nullabor, any thoughts at to this approach? Ingvar Angst wrote: Any changes as far as the initial supply? Simply removing the customs offices and waiting for the market to catch up in order to do effective PI again is crippling to say the least. I like the idea of leaving the customs offices in place and having these supercede them if someone plants one, and the customs office coming back online if one's destroyed. It adds the flavor of people deciding to remove the ones that a hostile corp put up, even if they can't manage to put one up themselves. This at least allows some safeguards, some means for people to be able to fight for the right to do their own PI without corporate interference. Leaving the customs offices in place as default in the absense of a POCO would really ease a lot of worries... let them be optional. Hell, double taxes on ALL the pocos if you want. At least PI won't get borked in one fell swoop for however many months it takes for the customs offices to be replaced. Allow a gradual shift that the economy can absorb instead of one massive crushing blow without any regards for the economy, pos fuels or existing PI set ups. This alone would be enough to get rid of any and all concerns I have about POCOs completely. I wish it would at least be considered. Edit: This also can help preserve the high sec PI industrialists access to low sec PI. Think about it - if someone goes and establishes a POCO on a low sec planet that is being used by high sec folks, they'd best set it up at a fair rate, otherwise it's now worthwhile for the high sec people to head into low and blow the POCO to hell, thus regaining access to their PI through the default customs office. We've seen the complaints that POCOs are going to kill low sec PI, this would keep it alive. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.26 18:07:00 - [42] - Quote At the rate you all are going with the tax stuff, we'll all need to train Rocket Science V to do PI. Keep it simple. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.26 19:04:00 - [43] - Quote Meldan Anstian wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: At the rate you all are going with the tax stuff, we'll all need to train Rocket Science V to do PI. Keep it simple. We are talking about launching things from a command center into space. So yes, rocket science V would be good. :) Dammit, I walked right into that one. What would be wrong with leaving the customs offices intact as they are now, but shutting them down if someone plants a POCO? Then if the POCO is destroyed or removed the customs office comes back online. I think this would really enhance things and allow changes to happen at a pace the community and economy can handle. It would keep low sec PI fully intact, even for high sec npc corp people by letting them maintain what they have and, if necessary, they could fight to regain PI lost by going into low and popping a POCO someone put up on their favored planet(s). It would allow null and wormholes plenty of transition time without borking up existing PI, would remove the problem of not being able to import goods to the planet during the transitions, and frankly would keep a lot of it optional. Some people may choose to keep their PI running through customs offices, others may choose to take the benefits of the POCO and erect those. The taxes... ugh, I'll leave that to others to play with the numbers. But this, I can't really see a downside at all to implementing them this way. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.26 19:50:00 - [44] - Quote rootimus maximus wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: What would be wrong with leaving the customs offices intact as they are now, but shutting them down if someone plants a POCO? Nothing, TBH. Ingvar Angst wrote: Then if the POCO is destroyed or removed the customs office comes back online. You can't have it both ways. Once the Concord one goes, it should be gone for good. But... why? If you leave it, then there's a whole new strategy regarding these. The main ones I'm thinking of are the high sec people that PI in low, but the advantages go everywhere. However... the high sec folks, if they find an unfriendly corp has planted one of these on a planet they're farming, are screwed right now with the stated implementation. This we can agree to, yes? Basically, there's nothing to gain for the high sec people (thinking npc corp types) to attack that POCO... they still won't be able to efficiently do their PI. HOWEVER... if the customs office remains, they can now destroy the POCO and once again have access to their PI in full. It would incentivize folks even in NPC corps into low to fight for their rights to a planet, and it would incentivize anyone putting a POCO up in a contested planet/area to do so with rates that the high sec folks won't take offense to, and to allow access to them. I really don't see how anyone loses, except for corps that try to take sole and complete control of a low sec system near high sec. They'll have the possibility of having to fight off a bunch of pissed off NPC corp people... and they may actually like that. Everyone wins! Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.27 02:39:00 - [45] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active. We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand. Yikes. It seems like concerns are bouncing off deaf ears. I'm really not convinced you all are actually thinking this through...the side effects this will really have. You're so eager to do it you're not considering whether you should. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.27 10:32:00 - [46] - Quote Creat Posudol wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: CCP Nullarbor wrote: POCOs have a reinforce timer like POSs, however unlike POSs you don't need to fuel it. You get to choose the hour which it comes out of reinforce giving you advance notice and the opportunity to align it for when your corp is most active. We are expecting BPCs and the built gantrys to be sold on the open market by those players who have loyalty points. The more entrepreneurial players out there would already be thinking about ways to get hold of more loyalty points before hand to make the most of the initial demand. Yikes. It seems like concerns are bouncing off deaf ears. I'm really not convinced you all are actually thinking this through...the side effects this will really have. You're so eager to do it you're not considering whether you should. Seriously, what the hell are you talking about? If you'd read my posts you'd understand. Implementation. Simply removing all the customs offices then having to wait for people to build the POCOs to replace them flat out doesn't make sense. Not allowing customs offices to be a default state (instead of nothing) craps all over people in high sec trying to do PI in low. The have nothing to fight for if some asshat plants a POCO and cuts off access to them. If you left the customs offices but had them be inactive when a POCO is present you solve a ton of problems. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.27 21:02:00 - [47] - Quote Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Exporting P1 - P2 could alternatively be done, if there isn't a PCO or it's 'unavailable' atm, via Command Center rocket launch. This would allow 333 units to be launched per launch. Hmm... so someone making 3500 plus units of oxygen per day... how much time would we be having to waste on that, not counting the other eight planets I have producing P1 mats? You're a sick, sick man for thinking that sounds like a good idea. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.28 12:11:00 - [48] - Quote C'mon Nullabor, think this through. Simplest solution would be to leave the customs offices in place (even at an increased tax rate) and have them "offlined" if a PCO (I like that better than POCO) is present. Hell just make some kind of isPcoPresent flag and allow or deny access based on that. If there's a PCO, you need to use that to connect to the launchpads. If not, the customs office is accessible and connects to the launch pads. Even if this is only for a three to six month transitionary period it prevents the crippling effects simply removing the customs offices will have. Forget about what you "expect" the players to do. Since when do they do that anyhow? Look at what's really happening in the game. Then step back and look at it from a broader perspective, not just that of a dev on the PI team. The biggest thing you do with leaving customs offices in place as described is basically save low sec PI by giving hogh sec people something to fight for... namely access to low sec planets that corporations either set up a PCO as a denial of access tactic or set up at an exhorborant tax rate. People in high sec will have a reason to head into low and blow the PCOs to hell, allowing themselves access to the customs office until such a time as they can plant one of their own or someone does at a tax rate the high sec folks find worth paying. You know this makes sense. Wormholes also benefit nicely from this method... PCOs can be brought in as needed rather than making them a requirement to get immediately or their fuel supply is shut off. You're putting too much control over wormhole living in the hands of people you "expect" to be offering the BPCs on the market. I'm sure there will be at first, but the prices will be crippling... this is Eve, that's what people do. This chatter you're seeing about 'just using the launchpads'... look at the volumes of stuff moved in wormhole PI and you'll be forced to admit that's a load of crap, even if you're using that as an escape to convince yourselves you're not really breaking the system. These PCOs have a lot of potential, they really do. But you're also seeing a lot of potential issues. It's far more important... or at least it should be... to introduce these in a way that benefits the game as a whole instead of focusing on a timeline. There needs to be a gradualness built in that allows the majority to absorb the impact relatively painlessly. One really bad decision that breaks a significant part of the game for a lot of people can easily overshadow for those people some of the great things coming at the same time. Try and look at it from the perspective of someone actually in the game, not of that as someone that designed the system and has an emotional attachment to the initial design. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.28 13:49:00 - [49] - Quote El 1974 wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: ... leave the customs offices in place (even at an increased tax rate) and have them "offlined" if a PCO (...) is present. ... If you do that then there is a lot less incentive to build or destroy PCO's. It would make the expansion as worhtless as Incarna. CCP won't do that. At best they will let the sale of CO BPCs to the general public start some time before actually removing them. I disagree... but then again, this isn't an expansion in and of itself, it's a PI change. If they're designed well and worth using, people will. If people don't then the question needs to be asked "why not?". Did they fail to make them cost efficient enough for people to even want them? Is the storage space too small, making the customs office more efficient? Are they simply too much of a pain in the ass to be worthwhile, or do they actually fail to provide anything of value to PI over the regular customs offices. If they build something good enough, people will want them and will implement them. If they turn out to be PI breaking pieces of crap, and they implement them in a way that pretty well breaks people's PI for a significant period of time (as the current method promises to do), they'll push people away from PI, bork up the market for all PI goods and have disgruntled a significant portion of the playerbase. You could keep the customs offices in play for three to six months in null sec and wormhole space to give fair time to transition over. That would be significant enough to ease the pain and allow the market to fully absorb any negative impacts the "cold turkey" approach will have. I'd defintiely leave customs offices in low sec however... it gives high sec people a reason to fight for their PI, especially those that prefer to remain in npc corps. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.28 18:02:00 - [50] - Quote Scrapyard Bob wrote: Max O'Deel wrote: I say again the concept is a good one it is just not thought out correctly. as it applies to WH space. Remove the POCOs, but increase the command center launch capability by 25% for every level trained in Command Center Upgrades. Or just make the higher variants of the Command Center hold more and be able to launch more at the same time: Level 0 CC - 500 m3 Level 1 CC - 750 m3 Level 3 CC - 1000 m3 Level 4 CC - 1500 m3 Level 5 CC - 2000 m3 (I don't think you should go much above 2000 m3. for the top level. And frankly, the level V command center should have a good bit more CPU/PG then it does now to pay for that long training time.) Ugh... my own person experience shows that even the 2000m3 is insufficient. Besides, it's not practical to rely on the command center for storage... they rarely remain connected to the rest of the PI network. Most often, when the resources deplete in one area you move the netowrk aroudn the planet while the command center remains where it was established. (Also a reason against relying on them for launching... they're not attached or near the PI network.) Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.31 12:09:00 - [51] - Quote Scrapyard Bob wrote: That's the choice you made when you moved your buildings away from the Command Center. So if you can't count on the POCO being available, you had better migrate your setup back towards the Command Center, or run a link back to the Command Center. (I also have a few colonies that I'm going to have to redo in order to use the CC for launches as a fallback - but it's nobody's fault but my own that my buildings are far away from the CC.) Choice? You ever do PI before? It's not a choice, it's a necessity. Unless you're running some scrawny-assed mini-network you'll be having to chase the resources around the planet. This will require you to move your network around. I don't know of anyone that puts anything resembling effort into their PI that hasn't had this issue. This is why the whole "remove all customs offices" will be brutally painful to most PI people, especially in places like wormholes where large scale PI happens and the logistics of moving things in and out can be a real pain. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.31 16:05:00 - [52] - Quote Scrapyard Bob wrote: Given that I run a few dozen PI planets, yes, I do in fact know what I'm talking about. If you're moving your buildings around to chase the hot-spot of the day because you're trying to min/max your yields, then that is the choice that you made. You're on a planet that simply cannot support the level of extraction that you're trying to do and you need to adjust your expectations downward. Not all planets and not all resources have high refill rates, which means that over time you will settle in at some lower number then what you were initially getting. Not all w-space systems are going to be self-supporting when it comes to POS fuels or whatever you're trying to extract. Take the 20% less yield per day and stop rebuilding your colony all the time - or spend the hour before placing your colonies to ensure that you've picked the right planet for the job. Or move to a slower extraction cycle such as every other day or every 3rd day. Or you need to petition CCP to increase the regeneration rate of the planets (which is something that I think needs to happen anyway, in order for planets to support enough PI harvest colonies to pay for the POCO). I tend to move once every four to six weeks. Hardly a "hot spot of the day" thing. Still, it only takes once and you're no longer connected to the command post. These worlmole planets hold up quite well for a good period of time, but not forever at any one location. So, based on my PI levels and how well I can maximize extraction --> P1 conversion per planets, there are periodic moves required. You sure you manage a few dozen planets? You should know something so basic. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.31 18:32:00 - [53] - Quote Ingvar Angst wrote: This is why the whole "remove all customs offices" will be brutally painful to most PI people, especially in places like wormholes where large scale PI happens and the logistics of moving things in and out can be a real pain. If POCOGÇÖs encourage gangs to come and destroy them, then I have to disagree. Mass restrictions make BS use tough, hence an ideal use for the new T3 BCGÇÖs (coincidence) with support. Losing PI goods for fleet battles is an easy price to pay [/quote] But... it won't. It's not worth it. You enter a hole, put the POCOs into reinforced... then leave, because in 16 to 24 hrs max the hole is closing behind you and the rf timer is minimum 24hrs. The residents simply shake their heads, roll their holes when you go and rep things back up. You waste your ammo and time and the residents time, nothing else. If you're actually invading the hole the POCOs will be the last thing you worry about. They're not a threat and the residents won't be worrying about running PI goods with an invading force in the hole. Once you've evicted the residents... then what? Ooh! I know... let's go waste more ammo and time on the POCOs. Hurrah. POCOs are a wasted concept ultimately in wormholes. The time it would take zero tax PI to pay for the costs don't make them worth it, but they'll be necessary evils in order to keep PI functioning. They're an even worse concept in Low sec, actually reducing conflict because high sec people, especially those in NPC corps, will have nothing to fight for once some dungpile plants a POCO on a planet they've been using. Why destroy it if there's nothing left anyhow? Again, the cost to erect these things won't be worthwhile for any small indy corps to have to bear. However... if they leave customs offices in place and have them go inactive when a POCO is active at that moon and have them go active again if the POCO is removed or destroyed, then high sec people have something they can fight for. They'll have the option to destroy the POCO and regain full access to their PI. Some will, some will hire mercs... but they'll be fought over/for. There will be a reason to. Leave the customs offices. Have them go inactive when a POCO is present. Have them be online when one isn't. So many issues are prevented and the system becomes much more dynamic like it sounds the original intent was. Everyone wins. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.10.31 19:57:00 - [54] - Quote Cailais wrote: In low sec space i think you will see corps fight over the ability to place POCOs in order to tax the PI inhabitants - i believe it will be relatively uncommon for PI manufacturers to set up their own POCOs, although some will and some may even band together to protect those assets. W space is slightly different. It rather depends on if its a worthwhile effort to place a POCO in order to exact a tax on the inhabitants, especially if you cannot easily protect that asset. Theres no doubt that keeping a POCO in place for self use in W space will be harder - but i think we can expect PI materials to rise in price as a result of POCOs being knocked out in low and null. This means that a w space PI process has the greatest security (over null and low sec) and the best profit margin. Over the long term w space PI should be plentiful and pretty reliable - albeit more awkward to establish. C. Tax the PI inhabitants... sure... but how much? You'll either see exhorborant tax rates in low sec simply because they can or you'll see corps locking out non-corp members completely to keep the resources for themselves, especially with the PI prices spiking as you've mentioned. But... if you keep the customs offices there, the high sec PI people can fight back. W-space... no, you're not going to put one up to tax your own people, that's just silly especially when they're likely providing some of the pos fuel you need. Anyone getting carried away like that will cause rifts in the corp with people that once had control of their own PI and now have to deal with corp leadership controlling it to a degree. You're certainly not going to put a POCO up in someone elses hole... that's simply target practice and wasted isk. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.01 12:19:00 - [55] - Quote rootimus maximus wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Tax the PI inhabitants... sure... but how much? You'll either see exhorborant tax rates in low sec simply because they can or you'll see corps locking out non-corp members completely to keep the resources for themselves, especially with the PI prices spiking as you've mentioned. How can you be so certain that there won't be reasonable tax rates? Quote: But... if you keep the customs offices there, the high sec PI people can fight back. Fighting back would be what the combat ships are for. 1. Human nature. You may initially see low tax rates to draw people to the planet by some before raising them, but really... if you're doing PI in low, where the resources are limited, do you really want to make it cheap for others to drain those resources? No. You either cut them off or jack up the rates. If their entire assumption is that corps will plant these and be kind and gentle overlords... well, it appears CCP doesn't know their own game, and that's scary. 2. Fighting back... there's no reason for high sec PI folks to fight back once these things are implemented as originally stated. What for? If you're in an NPC corp, as many are, you can't plant your own. However, if you leave the customs offices in place, then high sec folks can opt to destroy the offensive POCOs and regain full access to their PI. It's pitifully sad CCP is ignoring these issues though while those looking to abuse the system (or that have no horse in the race and simply will laugh at the griefing) blow sunshine up their arses. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.01 12:20:00 - [56] - Quote Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: CCP will not code for PI 'Power Users'... so arguing the finite details of power using the current PI feature will not impress anything upon CCP developers that will help iterate a better PCO feature. CCP Omen expressed exactly the current problem with the proposed PCO feature as it is currently iterated when he said: Quote: Our assumption is that Alliances or any corp will want to make money off their CO in low-sec. If that assumption turns out to be wrong, then we might intervene with a future update. THIS and only THIS is what we should be challenging in this thread, and constructively arguing against this over arching assumption to help iterate a better feature - anything less is a complete waste of all of your (everyones) intelectual talents imo. I really hope this exceptionally constructive thread doesn't devolve into epeen drivel... They already have coded for the PI power users. Otherwise there wouldn't be any. They're potentially breaking an established paradigm. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.01 18:26:00 - [57] - Quote Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: There is no potential about it, they are breaking an established paradigm. With that said, what is at issue is the paradigm they are shifting to... a paradigm shift that needs to be critiqued by the community to ensure its the 'right' paradigm shift. So when I say they will not code for power users, you've misunderstood my meaning: They will not modify their paradigm shift to cater to power users, as the current paradigm is being broken in favor of a new PCO-centric paradigm. So arguing about maintaining a paradigm that will not be maintained, is a waste of time. What will be productive, will be approaching CCP with reasonable arguments that attempt to alter their theoretical paradigm vision to a realistic and practical one that actually fits real game play dynamics. But that's just it... they can do both. They can maintain things for those established in the system while introducing PCOs in a way that the system and economy can absorb with relatively little pain. By simply leaving the customs offices in place, even for a period of three to six months outside of low, permanently in low, you allow everyone plenty of time to adapt while the PCO model establishes. If I have reasonable time to gather the BPCs and build the PCOs needed in my hole (will be up to 10) then for me nothing breaks at all. It becomes nothing more than an annoying added expense, but that can be absorbed. It's the cold turkey you're-PI-is-dead-right-now approach that concerns me personally, and with regards to high sec into low sec PI the fact that without customs offices to fight for the high sec folks are pretty much screwed and completely at the mercy of other people for their PI when that's never been the case before. I don't hate or even dislike the PCO concept. I don't trust it as of yet, this is true... giving other people control over someone else's PI seems inherently bad... but if implemented intelligently and not forced down our throats generating an immediate gag reflex I think it can wind up working well. Right now... a lot of people are gagging. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.02 01:44:00 - [58] - Quote Cailais wrote: Issler Dainze wrote: So it seems despite all the feedback to CCP that the concept was broken for low sec we see on SiSi it implemented as blogged? They really don't get it. Issler Except youre assuming that the 'concept for low sec' is broken: when it plaintively isnt. Destructable Low Sec POCOs are the desperately needed future. Accept that the 'free and easy' ISK font is going and adapt accordingly. C. Ah, C, you're missing the main point though. If the COs in low are destroyed and someone puts a PCO up, what recourse do the high sec folks have in NPC corps if they wind up denied access to those planets they're already established on? None. Go somewhere else. However, if you leave the COs intact but only offline them in the presence of a PCO, then the high sec people are given the option to band together, remove the PCO and start using the customs office again. Maybe a different corp will come along and set one up at fair rates the high folks accept... then they're making isk. You have to see that buy leaving the COs intact, though, that there's greater options for conflict simply because the high sec folks will have something they can actually fight for if provoked. The current method removes all incentive to fight for them. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.02 10:50:00 - [59] - Quote rootimus maximus wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Ah, C, you're missing the main point though. If the COs in low are destroyed and someone puts a PCO up, what recourse do the high sec folks have in NPC corps if they wind up denied access to those planets they're already established on? They could experience Eve in all its glory by joining or forming a player corp. NPC corps have their place, but they can also be a hinderance. This is an excellent case in point. So they should be forced to give up a part of the game they like in order to play the way you think they should? Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.02 14:02:00 - [60] - Quote War Kitten wrote: What is there to like about being in an NPC corp? The taxes you pay "to the man" for no benefit? The camaraderie of hundreds of newbies in corp chat asking the same silly questions over and over? Perhaps it's the false sense of community one gets when they see green star icons in hi-sec all the time? Or is it just the sad fear of being wardec'd in a real corporation that keeps them in the shallow end of the pool? What difference does it make? They're happy that way paying and playing Eve. Their reasons and motivations don't have to match up to what either of us think they should. It's their playstyle. I can't stand the thought of null space but enjoy the hell out of wormholes. Others are the opposite. Is either more right? No, to each their own. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.02 15:26:00 - [61] - Quote War Kitten wrote: Their reasons and motivations don't have to match up to ours, no. But for them to be catered to, they probably ought to be rational in the context of the argument you're making. Why should CCP, creators of the dark and harsh world of Eve Online, care that people who are too risk-averse or lazy to even create their own corporation won't be able to own a customs office in lowsec or have easy access to lowsec PI? Lowsec isn't easy mode or for those afraid of risks. NPC corporations are easy mode, specifically for those too new or too afraid of risk. Just because they have access now doesn't make it "right", nor is it a valid argument for continuing the access into the future. Keep in mind, even though these are folks that prefer the NPC corps, they're also the ones taking risks by going into low sec in the first place. These aren't the more risk-averse or lazy ones high has to offer. They're going into low, risking camps and ganks, for their PI. They will have no reason to take the risk anymore. That's the point I'm intending to make... if you take away the customs offices permanently, these people won't have the incentive to take the risks of going into low for any reason. Leave the customs offices permanently in low sec, but have them go inactive if a PCO is present. Then these people will have the option available to fight for their PI rights in low sec. It's incentive to take more risks, not less. Maybe after having to form groups to take out offending PCOs a few times will inspire some like-minded folks to form a corp of their own, who knows. But if you simply cut them off cold and tell them to do their PI in high sec... well, they will. They'll be more disgruntled, hate the system more and become less likely to expand further into the game. It's human nature. You can't take all the sand out of their sandbox and expect them to go play in the one you tell them to. They'll look at their empty box and go home. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.02 16:42:00 - [62] - Quote War Kitten wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Keep in mind, even though these are folks that prefer the NPC corps, they're also the ones taking risks by going into low sec in the first place. These aren't the more risk-averse or lazy ones high has to offer. They're going into low, risking camps and ganks, for their PI. No, these are the ones who've figured out that there is NO risk in taking a cloaked transport through lowsec to do PI if you know what you're doing. They're not risking anything. Quote: We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. Anything that is encouraging people to venture into low sec is a good thing in my opinion. Some folks need these baby steps to potentially take larger ones. Who are we to judge them or decry their playstyle simply because we chose differently? [quote=War Kitten] [quote=Ingvar Angst] You can't take all the sand out of their sandbox and expect them to go play in the one you tell them to. They'll look at their empty box and go home. CCP isn't removing the sand, they're removing the free plastic castle that comes with every PI office and telling you to build your own out of the sand from now on. There's no free rides here. They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps. Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low. Well, maybe low sec is over-crowded enough as it is and would be better off with the population, even the transient ones, reduced, hmm? This removes the sand. It takes away the incentive to build your own castle because the bullys have claimed the beach and if you kick them out there won't be a beach to play on. Leave the customs offices. Let them be inactive if a PCO is present and reactivate if it's removed. This leaves the sand so people will still be able to play in it. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.02 17:21:00 - [63] - Quote War Kitten wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: There's no free rides here. They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps. Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low. Well, maybe low sec is over-crowded enough as it is and would be better off with the population, even the transient ones, reduced, hmm? The only people this provides a disincentive to venture into lowsec are the ones that only dip their toes in the deep end of the pool in a non-catchable cloaky transport and quickly head back out. Those people are adding nothing to the lowsec population anyway, and we don't much care if they stop visiting. And if they DO continue to visit, they can pay our taxes. We, they, our... ah, ok. Now it makes sense. You're one of the ones looking to take advantage for your own benefits. I'm thinking of Eve as a whole. We'll never agree. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.02 19:27:00 - [64] - Quote War Kitten wrote: You've been arguing from the standpoint of a wormhole dweller that your thoughts are good for lowsec. I'm arguing that as a lowsec dweller, lowsec will be just fine with CCP's changes. Who has a more experienced opinion? I'm arguing from the standpoint of someone that did a little PI in low sec while stationed in high sec prior to moving into wormholes. At the time, that was pretty much my only reason to go into low sec, and as new as I was at the time, it was nerve wracking (in a fun way). So we're indeed looking at it from both sides of the same coin, with our "experienced opinions" filtered through differing perspectives. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.03 10:34:00 - [65] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: olsted wrote: So here we are over two weeks since the devblog. There has been a substantial amount of feedback regarding the implementation. We've seen evidence of CCP listening (or atleast taking notes). Wheres the v2 of the draft of this idea that addresses the raised (and enumerated) concerns either through "you're right were gonna fix that" or "thats not a concern for us at this time" point by point? Communication is a 2 way street and other than someone taking notes im not seeing any responses here. (unless you count the nifty videos about art in development... Im pretty sure theres a shiny monkey in em if you look closely enough!" Thanks, -O. We have a follow up devblog drafted and are just waiting on confirmation to some changes before releasing more details. No promises, but maybe early next week? Besides, you should be busy gawking over new BCs anyway New ships are pretty, but this involves significant changes and significant hardships if implemented poorly. I hope you understand why the ships aren't all that distracting. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.03 10:42:00 - [66] - Quote rootimus maximus wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: They pay the customs office taxes like everyone else does. This deos indeed take away people's abilities to do PI as they choose. You put control of planets into corporations and offer no recourse whatsoever to those that choose to enjoy the comforts of npc corps. This is only true if you exclude mannig up and forming a player corp, then fighting for what you want as an option. Quote: Without being able to fight for their PI rights, you'll have even less people venturing into low Then man up and get in a player corp. Take what you want (and hold on to it0 through force. Quote: This removes the sand. It takes away the incentive to build your own castle because the bullys have claimed the beach You, sir, have lost all credibility with your assertion that people who enjoy the spaceship PvP aspect of a spaceshp PvP game are bullies. If you had the fortitude to spend some real time in lowsec you'd find the same range of people that you'll find anywhere else in the game, including a few vindictive tossers. I suggest you stick to PI in a nice, quiet 1.0 system. It's an expression you boob. I'm quite content doing my PI in my wormhole with a boogey-man hiding behind every moon and no local giving away free intel to the wimps afraid of the shadows. Now, back to the point. Who the hell are you to dictate how every player in Eve should be playing Eve? There are people quite content to be in NPC corps, and that doesn't mean in any way, shape or form that their style of play is any better or worse than yours. That's the beauty of a sandbox style game in case you forgot... you only have to meet your own expectations, not that of the forum trolls. This current implementation of the change is taking away something from people that there's no reason to take away. Since you obviously weren't paying attention, I'll reiterate my idea on it... leave the customs offices and have them be inactive when a PCO is up. This way people that choose to remain in an NPC corp still have the option to go out and fight for their PI access while enjoying the style of play they choose. The ONLY people bitching about this are the ones planning to prey on this ability to take away from these high sec people and apparently don't have the balls to stand up to the scary NPC corps should they decide to mobilize and fight back. Now hush and let the adults chat. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.03 13:12:00 - [67] - Quote War Kitten wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Now, back to the point. Who the hell are you to dictate how every player in Eve should be playing Eve? There are people quite content to be in NPC corps, and that doesn't mean in any way, shape or form that their style of play is any better or worse than yours. That's the beauty of a sandbox style game in case you forgot... you only have to meet your own expectations, not that of the forum trolls. This current implementation of the change is taking away something from people that there's no reason to take away. Since you obviously weren't paying attention, I'll reiterate my idea on it... leave the customs offices and have them be inactive when a PCO is up. This way people that choose to remain in an NPC corp still have the option to go out and fight for their PI access while enjoying the style of play they choose. Your argument that "they have it now, they should always have it" has no merit. Should the Dramiel stay overpowered as it is now? It's always been that way... Should the nano-ship era have been left in place, despite getting out of hand? Should the AOE doomsday of titans have been left in place because it was that way first? Game mechanics change over time. What you don't seem to understand is that EVE is a conflict-driven game. PI, as it stands now, has almost 0 risk and adds nothing to the conflict of the game that drives the economy. With player-owned customs offices, there will be potential for more conflict. Just because people like NPC corp style of play and WANT to have easy access to good isk with minimal risk doesn't mean it's good for the game. The game is about building things and blowing them up and then rebuilding them. And finally, and I want you to think about this one, who in their right mind would build their own CO if they knew the concord one would never go away? What would be the point of even adding the feature at all in the manner you describe? Your idea, while perhaps well-intentioned, is a poor one. Your examples are invalid. They're representing things which are imbalanced in the name and need to be changed for that reason. There's nothing imbalanced about someone in an npc corp being able to do PI in low sec. Imbalances != playstyles. As for who would build PCOs? Simple... entrepreneur types willing to put them up with open access at a fair tax rate that the high sec people won't mind paying at all for the access to the better resources. You know... the ones CCP is intending this to be built by. Ingvar Angst wrote: The ONLY people bitching about this are the ones planning to prey on this ability to take away from these high sec people and apparently don't have the balls to stand up to the scary NPC corps should they decide to mobilize and fight back. Now hush and let the adults chat. Actually you're the one bitching about this. "High sec people" will continue to have PI access the same as before. [/quote] Eh... true, I am kind of bitching about this. However, you're mistaken. All it takes is some low sec bunghole to plant these and cut off access to the planets for the high sec people to no longer have the same access they do now. The question is... what could possibly be wrong with leaving high sec people something they can fight for, even if they chose to remain in an npc corp? How is that in any way a problem, unless you don't want the competition for the planet? Why restrict the potential for more PvP in low by taking away a reason for some people to go there in the first place? A grizzled old low sec veteran such as yourself surely has no reason to fear these noobs in NPC corps, so why not leave customs offices there to lure them to their doom? Your reasoning is... escaping me. You talk of how low sec should be more challenging, more PvPish... yet look to have a system in place that has the opposite effect. Leave the customs offices there for the high sec people to fight for if someone erects a PCO in a way that pisses them off. How could this possibly be a bad thing? That's the explanation I'm waiting for. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.03 14:00:00 - [68] - Quote Jack Dant wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: As for who would build PCOs? Simple... entrepreneur types willing to put them up with open access at a fair tax rate that the high sec people won't mind paying at all for the access to the better resources. You know... the ones CCP is intending this to be built by. [...] Eh... true, I am kind of bitching about this. However, you're mistaken. All it takes is some low sec bunghole to plant these and cut off access to the planets for the high sec people to no longer have the same access they do now. Those entrepeneurs will end up being the local pirates. Because, face it, they are the ones who live there, who can defend them, and most have zero interest in doing PI themselves. Also, you still haven't addressed my argument, so I repeat it. What keeps your NPC corp POCO bashers from anchoring their own POCO with a one man alt corp? It takes just a few hours to train a new alt that can do it. Gee, I don't know... maybe a lack of alts for one? These are the same people likely to have vested themselves in one character only. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.03 14:39:00 - [69] - Quote Jack Dant wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Gee, I don't know... maybe a lack of alts for one? These are the same people likely to have vested themselves in one character only. You have 3 slots on an account, make new char, train: Corp Management I, Anchoring I, Amarr Frig III, Amarr Industrial I, Hull Upgrades I. That's 9 hours with no implants. You can't put the bar any lower. So, once again, it's about people playing the way you decide they should instead of how they want to. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.03 15:34:00 - [70] - Quote War Kitten wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Jack Dant wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Gee, I don't know... maybe a lack of alts for one? These are the same people likely to have vested themselves in one character only. You have 3 slots on an account, make new char, train: Corp Management I, Anchoring I, Amarr Frig III, Amarr Industrial I, Hull Upgrades I. That's 9 hours with no implants. You can't put the bar any lower. So, once again, it's about people playing the way you decide they should instead of how they want to. So by your reasoning, if CCP gave you 3 tools, a hammer, a screwdriver and a wrench, and you ONLY wanted to use the hammer for some reason, you'd insist that every feature cater to the hammerers? No, but I'd ***** like hell if they decided to take away my nails. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.08 16:37:00 - [71] - Quote Nullabor - any updates to report? There are a lot of REAL concerns here that seem to be getting ignored. For one, I really can't believe you think simply removing all the customs offices without allowing any sort of ramp up time for people to buy the BPs, manufacture the PCOs and move them into place is in any way a good idea. You're simply breaking PI during what may be a long transition cycle for absolutely no reason whatsoever. You're really screwing a ton of people over heavily if you follow that ill-advised path to destruction. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.08 18:09:00 - [72] - Quote Scrapyard Bob wrote: Tas Nok wrote: Really looking for and awaiting the Dev response to how this will be changed WRT player feedback in this thread. the POS fuel changes came out roughly 24hrs ago and we've already seen that get fixed into something that is simpler but doesn't nerf faction towers to S*** waiting for the same sort of common sense here? PLS? My personal hope is that they're going back to the drawing board a bit - which is why we haven't heard anything in a week. Given how close it is now to expansion release day, I wouldn't be surprised if they push it off until the next big update after the initial expansion patch. The POS fuel changes were mostly just tweaks to the numbers - the basic concept didn't change. I hope you're right on this one. I could feel the changes sneaking up on me from behind, and the Nex is all out of vaseline. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.09 19:33:00 - [73] - Quote CCP Phantom wrote: Ingvar Angst wrote: Nullabor - any updates to report? There are a lot of REAL concerns here that seem to be getting ignored. For one, I really can't believe you think simply removing all the customs offices without allowing any sort of ramp up time for people to buy the BPs, manufacture the PCOs and move them into place is in any way a good idea. You're simply breaking PI during what may be a long transition cycle for absolutely no reason whatsoever. You're really screwing a ton of people over heavily if you follow that ill-advised path to destruction. Just to chime in and mentioning that this thread isn't forgotten or abandoned by the devs. Thank you for that, it's appreciated. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.10 02:54:00 - [74] - Quote Nemesis Factor wrote: Now, I don't know a lot about WH living, but I was under the assumption there were never any customs offices in WH space, in which case, what the hell is changing? If there ARE customs offices in WH space, then they should have never been there. It doesn't make any sense. the DED comes in and erects stations around WH planets? There is no population or industry there, WHY. There are indeed customs offices, and they're necessary due to the inability of your rocket launch mechanics to move not only significant amounts of materials off planet, but the inability to launch materials to planets for further refining. It's an example where necessity is greater than a twitch in someone's lore. Without customs offices PI in wormholes grinds to a halt. That's the major problem with the current idea of simply removing them cold turkey like that... it completely breaks PI production in wormholes. Robotics, for example, become impossible. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.12 16:25:00 - [75] - Quote CCP Phantom wrote: Unforgiven Storm wrote: Can we be given a follow up blog on this? Look to its coming on the first light of the third day, at dawn look to the ... err, yes, early next week! Also big thanks to the Team Pi and their extra work in many additional night shifts. Any hints or tidbits to share? Will I finally sleep at night again? (I think my concerns have been obvious... ) Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.14 18:45:00 - [76] - Quote Hakaru Ishiwara wrote: Jeepers Scooby! Walk away from the forums for a few weeks and this thread balloons into near-AnomalyGate proportions. Tons of interesting discussion regarding taxation and the micro / macro game design theory surrounding POCOs, but the underlying reason for this change seems to be under-represented: PI was introduced a year and a half ago as a means for generating a high dependency upon Planetary-based resources so that DUST 514 combat will have relevance to space ship pilots. CCP has successfully orchestrated this dependency, looking at this thread. CCP will do anything they deem necessary from a game design perspective to ensure that DUST 514 has content. We might as well be cognizant of that fact and move on. I think that players should also be asking themselves if they truly want to be dependent upon passive income and POS fuel from sources that may also be impacted by the PS3 console crowd. If not, then find other means to generate income and / or buy your fuels from the markets. You forget that far too many people, possibly myself included, will decide that if our most enjoyed playstyle (wormholes in this case, high dependancy on PI fuels) winds up becoming overly dependant on things we have no control over we'll simply consider other games instead. The one thing I can do in this game right now with little to no interference from others is create the PI pos fuels I need to keep my pos running. It's not too much to ask to allow for at least one little area of independance from the cacophony of the rest of the game. Sometimes I want a little "me" time. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ingvar Angst Nasty Pope Holding Corp 895	Posted - 2011.11.15 04:35:00 - [77] - Quote Esrevid Nekkeg wrote: Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote: Has anyone noticed this announcement? Final Feature Build on Singularity for Winter 2011 expansion Yes I have. And I tried that new SiSi build. Customs Office Gantry's are no longer seeded on the market. Makes you wonder...... So Nullabor decided to crap all over everyone's concerns because he's too emotionally attached to a mediocre plan with a crap implementation. Nice job CCP. Real effing nice. Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

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